Tony Greenstein, the anti-Zionist British communist, posted this on ALEF on May 14, 2008:
[alef] New Israeli study: Not more than 5 million Jews were exterminated by the Nazis
In fact the 6 million figure has never been accepted uncritically and indeed it is impossible to know exactly how many died. Raul Hilberg estimated that 5.1 million died. Hannah Arendt I think went as low as 4 million. The reality is that noone knows how many hundreds of thousands, possibly as much as 1.5 million, Russian Jews escaped to or were taken into the Soviet heartland. Certainly whole Jewish villages were evacuated as the Nazis began Operation Barbarossa. Likewise the number of those who were hidden or otherwise survived may have been larger than is recognised.
To those for whom the Holocaust is primarily an ideological weapon to be employed against the Palestinians then of course 6 million is a symbol that cannot be abandoned. But noone seriously believes you can make an estimate within a million and claim absolute accuracy. Rudolph Vrba believed over 2.5 million died in Auschwitz and this was what Hoess, the Commandant also came up with. Hilberg estimates it as little more than 1 million.
It is though interesting that those who deny the Nakba also claim that the Palestinian refugees were not deliberately expelled but merely the unfortunate victims of war.
Tony Greenstein
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Ephraim Nimni, Ex-Israeli Anti-Zionist Marxist in Australia, posted on ALEF on April 28, 2008
[alef] Re: Kol Israel disgusting sectorial demagoguery and propaganda
Having just listened to the program, it surprises even those like me who expect little from the IBA. In a paradoxical way, it is making the case for those who are arguing for an urgent boycott of Israeli institutions. Such level of crude incitement and manipulation of information, provocation, reducing the advocates of post-Zionism to dangerous enemies with a dramatic tone of voice and with dramatic music in the background is a text book example of incitement by denigration. The equation of post-Zionism with anti-Semitism, Nazism and etc, in an authoritative broadcast of official broadcaster of the Israeli state is a way of de-humanizing the individuals that hold those views, a prelude to shooting them by either private individuals or by the state. It reminds the incitement the preceded the assassination of Rabin. We must not forget the inciting role of official radio broadcasts in the crimes in Ruanda.
Please, could some urgently transcribe this program into English? It is crucially important to let the world know if we wish to protect the lives of the people endangered by it.
Ephraim
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Ed Corrigan posted on ALEF on April 28, 2008, alleging that the Zionists collaborated with the Nazis:
Article of interest published in 2002 on Zionist collaboration with the Nazis. Written by Lenni Brenner, an anti-Zionist Jewish activist and author of Zionism in the Age of Dictators and 51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis. For your archives.
Ed Corrigan
http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html
CounterPunch
December 23, 2002
51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis
by LENNI BRENNER
In 1983, Croom Helm Ltd. published
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Mark Marshall (jimzy@sympatico.ca) posted on Alef on April 27, 2008:
"Vanunu is a true Israeli patriot who immeasurably strengthened the position of his country by providing proof of its nuclear deterrent. After Vanunu’s revelations proving the existence of Israel’s nuclear arsenal, no state would dare attack Israel. He deserves the Israel Prize and the Nobel Peace Prize."
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Nizar Sakhnini (nizars@rogers.com) posted on ALEF on March 31, 2008
FALLACY AND BANKRUPTCY OF THE ZIONIST PROJECT:ISRAEL IS A STATE BASED ON ETHNIC CLEANSING AND LAND THEFT
...
When the Zionists began to talk about creation of a state in Palestine, the number of Jews living in Palestine did not exceed 10,000. Accordingly, creation of a .Jewish State in Palestine required Ethnic Cleansing and Land Theft. And this is exactly what started in 1948 and is still going on to this date.
...
It is about time for the Jews living in Palestine to admit the fallacy and bankruptcy of the Zionist project and to accept to live in peace and harmony with the Palestinian Arabs as equal people with equal rights and to allow the Refugees to go back to the lands and homes that were stolen from them.
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Avraham Oz - The owner of ALEF posted this - see comment about dean:
Dear friends,
This message was posted last night to the faculty circuit of the University of Haifa by the notorious Steven Plaut, a Professor of Business Administration at the University, who has recently resorted to energetic political activism on the circuit, having reduced for some reason his regular contribution to "web address", in which he urged his readers to send hate mails to a group of Israeli dissenting university professors, providing our addresses. Do open the link below: it speaks for itself. You may be relieved to know I have immediately been summoned to the Dean. Let's see what happens.
For better days,
Your mailman
Message posted:
Please open http://isracampus.org.il/ALEF%20Watch.htm
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Marlene Newesri posted on ALEF on March 23, 2008
And Israel falsely alleges Palestinians to be terrorists and Jew haters based purely on their identity so that Israel can carry out its crimes which they've been doing for decades. Justifying crimes against humanity by demonizing societies of people was a Nazi tactic. They did the same thing with the Roma Gyspies who they determined to be genetically criminal-minded.
So while the Nazis carried out crimes according to "identity," the New Nazis are doing the same, albeit using different tactics but with the same despicable mentality.
Marlene Newesri
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Aref Nammari (arefnammari@hotmail.com) posted on ALEF on March 22, 2008
Here are two links which discuss the Zionist Nazi collaboration. I don't think that any commentary is necessary. Of course the facts are known and documented except to those who prefer to keep their heads in the sand or are so myopic that they can't even see the tip of their nose.
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/1455
http://www.lastsuperpower.net/docs/nzccontents
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Tony Greenstein, communist anti-Zionist, posted on ALEF on March 10, 2008, in response to the massacre of eight children in the Merkaz Harav Yeshiva in Jerusalem:
I've just come across this excellent article from Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign on how the Yeshivah that was bombed last week is probably one of the most vile institutions one could imagine. A veritable centre of neo-Nazi or Judaeo Nazi ideas.
Tony Greenstein
'Medical experiments on Arabs, Arabs to the gas chambers
'Mercaz HaRav - a training centre for illegal occupation, murder and "Arabs to the Gas Chambers"
'A Palestinian killed eight Israeli students in a settler movement training centre, in retaliation for Israel's massacre of over a hundred Gazans, mostly civilians. Hundreds of the seminary students later chanted "Death to the Arabs" at the gates of their seat of learning.1 This was somehow missed by the BBC....The Mercaz HaRav yeshiva is based on contempt for all Gentiles, not only Arabs. ... Since non-Jews are similar to another species in the Kooks’ world-view, the very notion of human rights governing the relations between Jews and others is naturally repugnant to his followers; human rights are definitely not on the syllabus at Mercaz HaRav.' '
For more details and to see the full original article, go here
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Post of article by Ali Abunimah, founder of Al Awda and Electronic Intifada ISM groups. Timely, since it discusses Obama. Posted March 4, 2008:
"Obama's phrasing suggests that Hizbullah launched thousands of rockets in an unprovoked attack, but it's a complete distortion. Throughout his speech he showed a worrying propensity to present discredited propaganda as fact. As anyone who checks the chronology of last summer's Lebanon war will easily discover, Hizbullah only launched rockets against Israeli towns after Israel had heavily bombed civilian neighborhoods in Lebanon killing hundreds of civilians, many fleeing the Israeli onslaught
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Tony Greenstein, anti-Zionist communist, posted this on ALEF, March 2, 2008
'Israel's attack on Gaza, just like its kill ratio of Palestinians for years, is indeed Nazi like. The Nazis pioneered, with their Condor Legion, attacks on civlians and of course Guernica portrays this in artistic form.'
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Uri Davis, writing in ALEF, March 1, 2008
'The bundle of Israeli strategic apartheid legislation was formulated and passed by the Parliament of the State of Israel (Knesset) in the 1950s and early 1960s. The odious Absentees' Property Law was one of the first laws legislated by the First Knesset, even before the legislation of the political-Zionist Law of Return (also of 1950).
'In other words, first the bulk of the properties (notably the lands) of the ethnically cleansed 1948 Palestine refugees were first alienated in law, and then dedicated and accessed in law for "Jews" only.'
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"Marlene" of "falasteensadiqa", writing in ALEF, Feb 28, 2008
'(Israeli behavior is) Nazi inhumane cruelty...there is no other term for it. If that offends anyone here, I can only say that it is the actions of Israel that should be found so offensive and not my words.'
Marlene
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Aref Nammari, writing in ALEF, Feb 25, 2008
'It never ceases to amaze me how selective the Zionist apologists are.... If Morris and his like justify the ethnic cleansing--his own words in an interview published a few years ago where he blames Ben Gurion for not finishing the job i.e letting Palestinians remain in the Jewish state--of Palestine to allow for the establishment of the Jewish State, then they must have accepted the Nazi drive to rid Germany of the Jews. That they did as is well documented by Lenni Brenner. That is the Zionist legacy.'
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Wayne Kraft, writing in ALEF, Feb 20, 2008
'I am a kind of afraid that Israel has defined "Jewishness" in a way that can only be understood as racial. For its part, Israel has then implemented policies against its non-Jewish citizens and against the Palestinians in the occupied territories that can only be understood as racist. I'm afraid that what we've got are two levels of apartheid
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Uri Davis, writing in ALEF, Feb 19, 2008
Classifying the State of Israel as an apartheid state will, hopefully sooner rather than later, subject the rogue Government of the State of Israel to international sanctions under UN International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (entered into force 1976).
Classifying the State of Israel as a "Hafradah" state is a whitewash directed to assist Israeli apartheid evade international sanctions.
Uri Davis (Dr)
P O Box 99
Sakhnin 20173
Israel
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Shraga Elam, ex-Israeli Swiss fan of Holocaust Denier David Irving, writing in ALEF Nov 22, 2006:
'Please bring me
a single written
proof and I’ll agree with you. In order to demonstrate the
desperate situation of the intentionalists I’ll quote the
“discovery” of a German historian called Christian Gerlach, who in
1998 found an entry in Himmler’s diary from December 18, 1941. After
meeting Hitler, Himmler wrote a note saying something like “Jews are
to be treated like partisans.”
'The whole world applauded the historian for his important
“discovery” and Yehuda Bauer gave a lengthy interview about it to
the Ha’aretz Supplement. I wrote a letter to the editor which
angered Amnon Rubinstein. I wrote that this entry is no proof at
all. First of all it doesn’t say that Hitler told Himmler so and if
he did, it doesn’t talk about gassing Jews, as the partisans were
shot immediately after they were caught and not gassed. But this had
happened already before December and was found by the SS leadership
as not effective enough as a method against Jews.
'I wrote that I can understand why Zionists like Bauer are so happy
about this “discovery”, because
if Hitler ordered the “Final Solution”, it is understood that
there was no chance to save Jews and therefore the Jewish Agency
leadership was not guilty of
abandoning the European Jews and of sabotaging possible large scale
rescue chances.
'As I thought that it was possible to convince Irving to stop
denying the Holocaust I wrote in a polite way and stated that he was
a
brilliant researcher, which is a fact not noted only by myself.
I thought that it was a good opening and then afterwards decided not
to pursue the issue, …
'It is a very strange situation that even somebody like Eichmann, who was very central to the “Final Solution” (he was present at the Wannsee Confernce) didn’t see a written order from Hitler. It is widely agreed that Hitler was not a very strong dictator and had no control over many things done in Germany. What I’m saying isn’t a defense for Hitler. He was a criminal even without Auschwitz. He is directly responsible for many crimes ad not only against Jews.'
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Tony Greenstein, British anti-Zionist communist, writing in ALEF on Nov. 21, 2006:
"We can have a long debate about what Hitler did or didn’t know about the Holocaust. It is generally accepted that Hitler was a ‘broad brush’ leader who cared little for detail but laid down overall policy, playing off one faction of the NSDAP against another. … Irving himself, in his failed libel action against Deborah Lipstadt, accepted that the Hitler didn't know thesis did not hold after 1943."
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More Shraga Elam, Nov. 22, 2006:
'A German friend told me that for the older German generation the claim that Hitler didn’t know about the Auschwitz project is a very important argument. Because they can claim then that even if Hitler did not know about the industrial extermination how could have they known about it. I’m not trying to protect any one and I care for the truth, even if it doesn’t fit my prejudices. It is a fact that the “Final Solution” was a top secret issue and it is to be seen in many of the relevant documents. I see the fixation on Hitler as a wrong political analysis, which doesn’t imply any whitewash of him. It has for me religious component. I’m totally against the hysteric attitude towards Holocaust Denial (HD). Till now HD is more dangerous to the deniers themselves while the Israel and its lobby make a profit out of it and find in it a justification for expanding the Holocaust religion while more and more people are getting fed up with the over kill.'
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Tony Greenstein, British communist, responds, Nov 23, 2006:
'I am well aware of the despicable exploitation of the holocaust, and the growth of the holocaust industry, whose primary object is not to warn against the dangers of racism or fascism, but to legitimize (sic) Israel. That is a given. Likewise the focus on holocaust denial is a cynical ploy to pretend that anti-Semitism today is alive and well.'
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Shraga Elam answers Greenstein, Nov. 23, 2006:
'There is nothing morally wrong with discussing with Irving and his friends. I don’t see the basic moral difference between Irving and some members of this list who deny that Israel committed in 1948 an ethnic cleansing and that it does it today. Still many of us discuss with these ethnic cleansing deniers.'
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Elam adds on Nov. 26:
'I want also to draw your attention that last year the famous playwright and author Rolf Hochhuth called David Irving in an interview a “fabulous pioneer of contemporary history” and “much more serious than many German historians”. Hochhuth who had based one of his plays on a previous Irving’s research said later that he referred to Irving’s work before he had started to deny the Holocaust. Irving was really a very respected researcher till he started to deny the Judeocide. I find it almost amusing that the racists witch-hunters from the IsraCampus.org are claiming that I’m disseminating “Anti-Semite” material, because I claim that there is no written proof that Hitler ordered the industrial extermination of the Jews and that he didn’t get real reports on it.'
(see also this)
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Tony Greenstein, British anti-Zionist communist, writes on ALEF on March 21, 2007:
'Zionism shares many facets with Nazism - see the tribute to Ilan Papper from some illiterate jerk who exclaims that Haifa will smell nicer after he is gone. A good example of the Judaeo-Nazi mind that seeks to cast out any intellectual who goes against the national myth. You simply wouldn't get such a reaction to a radical professor in Britain but maybe that's because the mores of civilization (sic) has yet to percolate throughout most of Israeli academia. Zionism's state worship is another similarity with Naziis (sic) - e.g. the obsession with recognizing (sic) the right of the Israeli state to exist etc. Tony Greenstein'
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Dorothy Naor posted on ALEF on July 1, 2006
Aengus Snodaigh is absolutely correct to designate Israel as one of "the most abhorrent and despicable regimes on the planet," and this with respect to its own, as well as with respect to Palestinians. Ask Israelis suffering from pancreas cancer who haven't the money to purchase the medication that can extend their lives how the government treats them. Ask 40% of aged Holocaust survivors how Israel treats them. Ask the 1 of every 3 Israeli children that goes to bed hungry how Israel treats him/her. And so on and so on, while Israel continues to pour money into expansion, and ethnic cleansing (with over 9000 Palestinians incarcerated, including children as young as 12 years of age). Israel is becoming a third world country (Israel now has the highest poverty level of any western country) for the sake of globalization and expansion! The government has money but prefers to spend it on expansion and ethnic cleansing. And the Security Council refuses to censure Israel!
Sounds like the 1930s all over again, only now the victims instead of being Jews, other non-Arians, physically and mentally imperfect Arians, and the Sudetenland are impoverished Israelis (Jewish and Muslim) and the Palestinians.
Dorothy
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Shraga Elam on ALEF praising the Hamas victory, Feb 1, 2006:
'The sweeping electoral victory of Hamas is primarily a triumph for the Israeli government and a big defeat for Palestinian interests. The international pressure on the Palestinians is growing. If Hamas will not make now substantial and painful concessions it risks a massive cut in the financial international support and further escalation in the Israeli anti-Palestinian measures. If it will commit such concessions it will not only betray its voters, but the Israeli government will demand more. Now e.g. there is the demand that Hamas will recognize Israel and will declare that it gives up the armed struggle, before substantial economic aid will be rendered. If Hamas will fulfil (sic) these conditions, it will be confronted with others like the impossible demand to renounce the Right of Return for the Palestinian refugees…. Collective punishments have been imposed under the declared goal that the Palestinians will put their pressure on the militants to stop their activities. An alleged aim that the Israeli generals know perfectly well cannot be thus achieved, as the Palestinian civilians can hardly impose such a line on the militants. …From the perspective of the Israeli elite the Hamas electoral victory is a win-win-situation. ,,, It is very difficult for colonialized (sic) people to look for a peaceful and just mode of coexistence with their oppressors and vice versa it is difficult for the colonialists to give up their privileges and arrogant attitudes.'
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Victoria Buch (vvbb54@yahoo.com) posted on ALEF on Nov 1, 2006
Headlines from Occupation Magazine
Israel Commits Collective Human Rights Violations against Palestinian People in OPT (WAFA) - "Rasheed pointed out that Israel , the occupying Power, continued to kill, injure and maim innocent Palestinian civilians, including women and children, as well as continued to destroy Palestinian homes and properties."
Israel`s New Arsenal
Ethan Heitner - Tompaine - "This is neither the first time that Israel has lied about its weapons nor the first time it has used Lebanese civilians as live guinea pigs for its weapons."
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